Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

Nikolas Everett


On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Itamar Syn-Hershko <[hidden email]> wrote:
Right now if a question title in my inbox catches my eye I'll quickly read it and respond.

Me too.

I'm happy to try anything.  I'm invested enough in the community that I'd actually go and setup the email on every post thing. The transition is probably going to be rough but that is life.

Nik

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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

Glen Smith
In reply to this post by leslie.hawthorn
My experiment so far: 
Action: enabled email notification for all new posts
Outcome: Received a notification

Action: post by replying to a notification email:
Outcome:

Guidance?


On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 1:21:07 PM UTC-4, leslie.hawthorn wrote:


On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ivan Brusic <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="K-3QC6YVHEIJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">iv...@...> wrote:

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that I see no issues with the mailing lists.

Understood. 

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of our inputs.

Actually, I'm maintaining our Forums pre-launch checklist where there's a line item for "don't move forward based on community feedback". I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the change will happen regardless of input from the community. We asked for feedback for a reason. :)

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an account.

You'll need an account, but it's a one-time login to set up your preferences and then read/interact solely via email.  

Cheers,
LH

Cheers,

Ivan

On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="K-3QC6YVHEIJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">leslie....@...> wrote:
Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="K-3QC6YVHEIJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">iv...@...> wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it. It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan

On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="K-3QC6YVHEIJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">leslie....@...> wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at <a href="http://www.discourse.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;">http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - <a href="https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;">https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
<a href="http://elastic.co/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;">http://elastic.co


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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

tylerjl
Administrator
Glen,

We'll be setting up a dedicated instance of Discourse with the functionality in question, which is still forthcoming. Once we have that, we'll be able to provide the information necessary to subscribe to what you're interested in and reply via email.

We've been beating on Discourse for a while now to ensure everything works as promised, and I can confirm that the features you're testing work - we just haven't deployed the platform yet. We're approaching this skeptically to ensure the features we want do what we expect. :)

Cheers,
Tyler

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 12:31:19 PM UTC-6, Glen Smith wrote:
My experiment so far: 
Action: enabled email notification for all new posts
Outcome: Received a notification

Action: post by replying to a notification email:
Outcome:

<a href="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fHmgizKoI-Y/VS6uXmOD5tI/AAAAAAAAA8E/7aCXAfS0HsQ/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-04-15%2Bat%2B2.27.14%2BPM.png" style="margin-left:1em;margin-right:1em" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fHmgizKoI-Y/VS6uXmOD5tI/AAAAAAAAA8E/7aCXAfS0HsQ/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-04-15%2Bat%2B2.27.14%2BPM.png';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fHmgizKoI-Y/VS6uXmOD5tI/AAAAAAAAA8E/7aCXAfS0HsQ/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-04-15%2Bat%2B2.27.14%2BPM.png';return true;">

Guidance?


On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 1:21:07 PM UTC-4, leslie.hawthorn wrote:


On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ivan Brusic <[hidden email]> wrote:

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that I see no issues with the mailing lists.

Understood. 

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of our inputs.

Actually, I'm maintaining our Forums pre-launch checklist where there's a line item for "don't move forward based on community feedback". I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the change will happen regardless of input from the community. We asked for feedback for a reason. :)

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an account.

You'll need an account, but it's a one-time login to set up your preferences and then read/interact solely via email.  

Cheers,
LH

Cheers,

Ivan

On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic <[hidden email]> wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it. It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan

On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at <a href="http://www.discourse.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;">http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - <a href="https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;">https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
<a href="http://elastic.co/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;">http://elastic.co


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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

Glen Smith
Tyler-

Thanks. I hope it's 100% clear to everyone with that concern now.

Regards,
Glen

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 3:06:23 PM UTC-4, [hidden email] wrote:
Glen,

We'll be setting up a dedicated instance of Discourse with the functionality in question, which is still forthcoming. Once we have that, we'll be able to provide the information necessary to subscribe to what you're interested in and reply via email.

We've been beating on Discourse for a while now to ensure everything works as promised, and I can confirm that the features you're testing work - we just haven't deployed the platform yet. We're approaching this skeptically to ensure the features we want do what we expect. :)

Cheers,
Tyler

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 12:31:19 PM UTC-6, Glen Smith wrote:
My experiment so far: 
Action: enabled email notification for all new posts
Outcome: Received a notification

Action: post by replying to a notification email:
Outcome:

<a href="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fHmgizKoI-Y/VS6uXmOD5tI/AAAAAAAAA8E/7aCXAfS0HsQ/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-04-15%2Bat%2B2.27.14%2BPM.png" style="margin-left:1em;margin-right:1em" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fHmgizKoI-Y/VS6uXmOD5tI/AAAAAAAAA8E/7aCXAfS0HsQ/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-04-15%2Bat%2B2.27.14%2BPM.png';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fHmgizKoI-Y/VS6uXmOD5tI/AAAAAAAAA8E/7aCXAfS0HsQ/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-04-15%2Bat%2B2.27.14%2BPM.png';return true;">

Guidance?


On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 1:21:07 PM UTC-4, leslie.hawthorn wrote:


On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ivan Brusic <[hidden email]> wrote:

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that I see no issues with the mailing lists.

Understood. 

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of our inputs.

Actually, I'm maintaining our Forums pre-launch checklist where there's a line item for "don't move forward based on community feedback". I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the change will happen regardless of input from the community. We asked for feedback for a reason. :)

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an account.

You'll need an account, but it's a one-time login to set up your preferences and then read/interact solely via email.  

Cheers,
LH

Cheers,

Ivan

On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic <[hidden email]> wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it. It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan

On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at <a href="http://www.discourse.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;">http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - <a href="https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;">https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
<a href="http://elastic.co/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;">http://elastic.co


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Voice: +31 20 794 7300



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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

Ivan Brusic
In reply to this post by leslie.hawthorn

I believe the best developers are cynics.  Never trust someone else's code, that API, the OS, etc :)

What bothers me about Discourse is that email is an afterthought. They have not built out that feature yet?  For me, and apparently many others,  email is the first concern.

The transition is understandable if you want to transition from a closed system. The other reason, not enough fragmentation, is worrisome. If no one uses the logstash list,  that is a problem with the site/documentation, not the mailing list itself. I cringe at the thought of an Elasticsearch forum with a dozen subforums.

Ivan

On Apr 15, 2015 7:21 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ivan Brusic <[hidden email]> wrote:

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that I see no issues with the mailing lists.

Understood. 

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of our inputs.

Actually, I'm maintaining our Forums pre-launch checklist where there's a line item for "don't move forward based on community feedback". I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the change will happen regardless of input from the community. We asked for feedback for a reason. :)

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an account.

You'll need an account, but it's a one-time login to set up your preferences and then read/interact solely via email.  

Cheers,
LH

Cheers,

Ivan

On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic <[hidden email]> wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it. It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan

On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co


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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

Zhongxing Xu
In reply to this post by leslie.hawthorn
This is really important for us in China!!
Please switch to whatever service that is accessible in China.
Thank you.

在 2015年4月2日星期四 UTC+8下午11:36:33,leslie.hawthorn写道:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at <a href="http://www.discourse.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;">http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - <a href="https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;">https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
<a href="http://elastic.co/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;">http://elastic.co


Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

Alfredo Serafini
In reply to this post by Ivan Brusic
Hi
I agree with Jorge 100%: adopting a license which gives people the freedom to construct datasets would be great. As I already suggested too to leslie, I think one of the most interesting things coudl be indeed releasing the dataset of the conversations, and costruct over there some example :-)
Obviously I hope there will be an ES plugin for discourse! (if it doesn't exist already)

Il giorno lunedì 20 aprile 2015 14:42:32 UTC+2, Ivan Brusic ha scritto:

I believe the best developers are cynics.  Never trust someone else's code, that API, the OS, etc :)

What bothers me about Discourse is that email is an afterthought. They have not built out that feature yet?  For me, and apparently many others,  email is the first concern.

The transition is understandable if you want to transition from a closed system. The other reason, not enough fragmentation, is worrisome. If no one uses the logstash list,  that is a problem with the site/documentation, not the mailing list itself. I cringe at the thought of an Elasticsearch forum with a dozen subforums.

Ivan

On Apr 15, 2015 7:21 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="xPGbknWOUZQJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">leslie....@...> wrote:


On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ivan Brusic <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="xPGbknWOUZQJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">iv...@...> wrote:

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that I see no issues with the mailing lists.

Understood. 

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of our inputs.

Actually, I'm maintaining our Forums pre-launch checklist where there's a line item for "don't move forward based on community feedback". I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the change will happen regardless of input from the community. We asked for feedback for a reason. :)

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an account.

You'll need an account, but it's a one-time login to set up your preferences and then read/interact solely via email.  

Cheers,
LH

Cheers,

Ivan

On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="xPGbknWOUZQJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">leslie....@...> wrote:
Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="xPGbknWOUZQJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">iv...@...> wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it. It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan

On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="xPGbknWOUZQJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">leslie....@...> wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at <a href="http://www.discourse.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;">http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - <a href="https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;">https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
<a href="http://elastic.co/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;">http://elastic.co


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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

Jack Park-2
I've long wondered how it is that the ElasticSearch tribe could not build something within its own community, a platform that uses ElasticSearch to provide the UX being discussed here (a term occasionally used for that is "eat your own dog food").  Just thinkin...

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:18 AM, Alfredo Serafini <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi
I agree with Jorge 100%: adopting a license which gives people the freedom to construct datasets would be great. As I already suggested too to leslie, I think one of the most interesting things coudl be indeed releasing the dataset of the conversations, and costruct over there some example :-)
Obviously I hope there will be an ES plugin for discourse! (if it doesn't exist already)

Il giorno lunedì 20 aprile 2015 14:42:32 UTC+2, Ivan Brusic ha scritto:

I believe the best developers are cynics.  Never trust someone else's code, that API, the OS, etc :)

What bothers me about Discourse is that email is an afterthought. They have not built out that feature yet?  For me, and apparently many others,  email is the first concern.

The transition is understandable if you want to transition from a closed system. The other reason, not enough fragmentation, is worrisome. If no one uses the logstash list,  that is a problem with the site/documentation, not the mailing list itself. I cringe at the thought of an Elasticsearch forum with a dozen subforums.

Ivan

On Apr 15, 2015 7:21 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ivan Brusic <[hidden email]> wrote:

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that I see no issues with the mailing lists.

Understood. 

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of our inputs.

Actually, I'm maintaining our Forums pre-launch checklist where there's a line item for "don't move forward based on community feedback". I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the change will happen regardless of input from the community. We asked for feedback for a reason. :)

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an account.

You'll need an account, but it's a one-time login to set up your preferences and then read/interact solely via email.  

Cheers,
LH

Cheers,

Ivan

On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic <[hidden email]> wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it. It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan

On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co


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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

David Reagan
In reply to this post by leslie.hawthorn
Moving away from mailing lists for anything except announcements would be awesome. Forums are a much better way to have solid discussions with multiple people in. Email is fine, but when you add in more than a couple people, it gets confusing fast. Forums are also far more user friendly for people who haven't learned the various ways developers communicate.

That said, if the forum idea is scrapped, please be sure to stick with Google Groups or something similar. Don't switch to something like the Debian user lists. Every time a search result pops up from a list like that when I am looking for help, I can never figure out if I've seen all the emails in the thread or not. The interface is just horrid. Google Groups at least has conversation view.

On a similar subject, is there any chance we could get a real time chat app that is more user friendly than IRC? Does something exist that could sit on top of IRC and alleviate the IRC's user unfriendliness?

On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 8:36:33 AM UTC-7, leslie.hawthorn wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at <a href="http://www.discourse.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w';return true;">http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - <a href="https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2Ft%2Fmigrating-from-google-groups%2F24695\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHl-9vh2_cDaKkyAP0kNojpJoAtXg';return true;">https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
<a href="http://elastic.co/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Felastic.co%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlfCfJXMcchOuOl8emXyBIJloHEA';return true;">http://elastic.co


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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

leslie.hawthorn


On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 7:26 PM, David Reagan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Moving away from mailing lists for anything except announcements would be awesome. Forums are a much better way to have solid discussions with multiple people in. Email is fine, but when you add in more than a couple people, it gets confusing fast. Forums are also far more user friendly for people who haven't learned the various ways developers communicate.

Thanks for your feedback!
 
That said, if the forum idea is scrapped, please be sure to stick with Google Groups or something similar. Don't switch to something like the Debian user lists. Every time a search result pops up from a list like that when I am looking for help, I can never figure out if I've seen all the emails in the thread or not. The interface is just horrid. Google Groups at least has conversation view.

Mailman is little painful, but with the latest release it's become a bit friendlier. 

On a similar subject, is there any chance we could get a real time chat app that is more user friendly than IRC? Does something exist that could sit on top of IRC and alleviate the IRC's user unfriendliness?

Why do you find IRC unfriendly? Have you tried using a web based client like irccloud.com?

Cheers,
LH 


On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 8:36:33 AM UTC-7, leslie.hawthorn wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co


Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn
Skype: mebelh
Voice: +31 20 794 7300



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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

David Reagan
> Why do you find IRC unfriendly? Have you tried using a web based client like irccloud.com?
I use webchat.freenode.net.

There's a big difference between, "Here's our live chat app." and "Learn how to connect to IRC in order to use live chat." I actively avoided live chat for years simply because I had no interest in learning anything about IRC. For a new user, IRC is not friendly, especially if you are not a developer or are new to it.

There's also the fact that you are told off if you post any code when asking for help. I could see it if the code sample was really long, but when people get told off when they post three or four lines of code, that's not friendly at all. This has happened to me, and I've seen it happen to others. (Not sure it if was in an ELK channel or not...)

Plus, figuring out how to start a private conversation, or set your status to away, or registering your username so others can't impersonate you, and so on is not obvious. I still haven't taken the time to figure it out.

Ideally, we'd have something that functions similar to HipChat. Nice UI, and code snippets are automatically shortened unless you choose to show the full snippet.


--David Reagan

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Leslie Hawthorn <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 7:26 PM, David Reagan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Moving away from mailing lists for anything except announcements would be awesome. Forums are a much better way to have solid discussions with multiple people in. Email is fine, but when you add in more than a couple people, it gets confusing fast. Forums are also far more user friendly for people who haven't learned the various ways developers communicate.

Thanks for your feedback!
 
That said, if the forum idea is scrapped, please be sure to stick with Google Groups or something similar. Don't switch to something like the Debian user lists. Every time a search result pops up from a list like that when I am looking for help, I can never figure out if I've seen all the emails in the thread or not. The interface is just horrid. Google Groups at least has conversation view.

Mailman is little painful, but with the latest release it's become a bit friendlier. 

On a similar subject, is there any chance we could get a real time chat app that is more user friendly than IRC? Does something exist that could sit on top of IRC and alleviate the IRC's user unfriendliness?

Why do you find IRC unfriendly? Have you tried using a web based client like irccloud.com?

Cheers,
LH 


On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 8:36:33 AM UTC-7, leslie.hawthorn wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co


Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn
Skype: mebelh
Voice: <a href="tel:%2B31%2020%20794%207300" value="+31207947300" target="_blank">+31 20 794 7300



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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

leslie.hawthorn
Hi David,

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 8:36 PM, David Reagan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Why do you find IRC unfriendly? Have you tried using a web based client like irccloud.com?
I use webchat.freenode.net.

There's a big difference between, "Here's our live chat app." and "Learn how to connect to IRC in order to use live chat." I actively avoided live chat for years simply because I had no interest in learning anything about IRC. For a new user, IRC is not friendly, especially if you are not a developer or are new to it.

I hear you. I think those of us who have been using IRC for decades think it is easy. I know I find it more intuitive than HipChat.  

There's also the fact that you are told off if you post any code when asking for help. I could see it if the code sample was really long, but when people get told off when they post three or four lines of code, that's not friendly at all. This has happened to me, and I've seen it happen to others. (Not sure it if was in an ELK channel or not...)

I sure hope not - we pride ourselves on having a courteous and welcoming community presence. Each channel has its own culture, and some are brusque or downright rude. That's not how we play it. :) 

Plus, figuring out how to start a private conversation, or set your status to away, or registering your username so others can't impersonate you, and so on is not obvious. I still haven't taken the time to figure it out.

Yes, and a pointer to an FAQ doc isn't interesting when you want something to just work(TM). 

Ideally, we'd have something that functions similar to HipChat. Nice UI, and code snippets are automatically shortened unless you choose to show the full snippet.

Worth thinking through, though I doubt we'll action this any time soon. We're doing our best to maintain good coverage in our IRC channels and folks would still prefer Elastic employees were around more often. Opening up yet another chat mechanism seems like a way to make sure even more people feel the same way. ;)

Really appreciate the feedback!

Cheers,
LH
 

--David Reagan

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Leslie Hawthorn <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 7:26 PM, David Reagan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Moving away from mailing lists for anything except announcements would be awesome. Forums are a much better way to have solid discussions with multiple people in. Email is fine, but when you add in more than a couple people, it gets confusing fast. Forums are also far more user friendly for people who haven't learned the various ways developers communicate.

Thanks for your feedback!
 
That said, if the forum idea is scrapped, please be sure to stick with Google Groups or something similar. Don't switch to something like the Debian user lists. Every time a search result pops up from a list like that when I am looking for help, I can never figure out if I've seen all the emails in the thread or not. The interface is just horrid. Google Groups at least has conversation view.

Mailman is little painful, but with the latest release it's become a bit friendlier. 

On a similar subject, is there any chance we could get a real time chat app that is more user friendly than IRC? Does something exist that could sit on top of IRC and alleviate the IRC's user unfriendliness?

Why do you find IRC unfriendly? Have you tried using a web based client like irccloud.com?

Cheers,
LH 


On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 8:36:33 AM UTC-7, leslie.hawthorn wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co


Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn
Skype: mebelh
Voice: <a href="tel:%2B31%2020%20794%207300" value="+31207947300" target="_blank">+31 20 794 7300



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Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn
Skype: mebelh
Voice: +31 20 794 7300



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Re: Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted

David Reagan
Worth thinking through, though I doubt we'll action this any time soon. We're doing our best to maintain good coverage in our IRC channels and folks would still prefer Elastic employees were around more often. Opening up yet another chat mechanism seems like a way to make sure even more people feel the same way. ;)
Yep, starting something like my suggestion would be a major project. Not something to do lightly.

One idea, that might be easy to implement, would be to host your own IRC webchat interface, and if possible, have it automatically open the elasticsearch channels. Then users could go to elastic.co, hover over the Community nav link, and just click "chat".


--David Reagan

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 7:41 AM, Leslie Hawthorn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi David,

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 8:36 PM, David Reagan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Why do you find IRC unfriendly? Have you tried using a web based client like irccloud.com?
I use webchat.freenode.net.

There's a big difference between, "Here's our live chat app." and "Learn how to connect to IRC in order to use live chat." I actively avoided live chat for years simply because I had no interest in learning anything about IRC. For a new user, IRC is not friendly, especially if you are not a developer or are new to it.

I hear you. I think those of us who have been using IRC for decades think it is easy. I know I find it more intuitive than HipChat.  

There's also the fact that you are told off if you post any code when asking for help. I could see it if the code sample was really long, but when people get told off when they post three or four lines of code, that's not friendly at all. This has happened to me, and I've seen it happen to others. (Not sure it if was in an ELK channel or not...)

I sure hope not - we pride ourselves on having a courteous and welcoming community presence. Each channel has its own culture, and some are brusque or downright rude. That's not how we play it. :) 

Plus, figuring out how to start a private conversation, or set your status to away, or registering your username so others can't impersonate you, and so on is not obvious. I still haven't taken the time to figure it out.

Yes, and a pointer to an FAQ doc isn't interesting when you want something to just work(TM). 

Ideally, we'd have something that functions similar to HipChat. Nice UI, and code snippets are automatically shortened unless you choose to show the full snippet.

Worth thinking through, though I doubt we'll action this any time soon. We're doing our best to maintain good coverage in our IRC channels and folks would still prefer Elastic employees were around more often. Opening up yet another chat mechanism seems like a way to make sure even more people feel the same way. ;)

Really appreciate the feedback!

Cheers,
LH
 

--David Reagan

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Leslie Hawthorn <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 7:26 PM, David Reagan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Moving away from mailing lists for anything except announcements would be awesome. Forums are a much better way to have solid discussions with multiple people in. Email is fine, but when you add in more than a couple people, it gets confusing fast. Forums are also far more user friendly for people who haven't learned the various ways developers communicate.

Thanks for your feedback!
 
That said, if the forum idea is scrapped, please be sure to stick with Google Groups or something similar. Don't switch to something like the Debian user lists. Every time a search result pops up from a list like that when I am looking for help, I can never figure out if I've seen all the emails in the thread or not. The interface is just horrid. Google Groups at least has conversation view.

Mailman is little painful, but with the latest release it's become a bit friendlier. 

On a similar subject, is there any chance we could get a real time chat app that is more user friendly than IRC? Does something exist that could sit on top of IRC and alleviate the IRC's user unfriendliness?

Why do you find IRC unfriendly? Have you tried using a web based client like irccloud.com?

Cheers,
LH 


On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 8:36:33 AM UTC-7, leslie.hawthorn wrote:
Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of our users for a few reasons:

* More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

* Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to production

* Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue. We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695


Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co


Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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Leslie Hawthorn
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http://elastic.co

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Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn
Skype: mebelh
Voice: <a href="tel:%2B31%2020%20794%207300" value="+31207947300" target="_blank">+31 20 794 7300



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